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Old 03-25-2002, 04:21 AM   #1
StinkyFatPig

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What Box for Fast Punchy bass

First off just wanted to say hey..
My question is, what kind of box is best for the quickest punchy bass. I have 2 12" rockfords. I want crisp clear, with very fast response.. The kind of music i play needs quick bass...

There in a sealed box right now, but I am just starting to build a real system in this car so i am looking for ideas to plan it when i overhaul it..

if it helps there being pushed by a alpine V12 MVR-1002 bridged running @ 600W RMS

PS, to the mods, You guys should put up a newbie section so guys like me dont fill up the board with questions that have probably been asked a million times.

thanx guys
Rod

Last edited by StinkyFatPig; 03-26-2002 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 03-25-2002, 05:29 AM   #2
rangerfan99

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Generally sealed boxes are more tight but a properly built and tuned ported box will sound just as good if not better. I prefer sealed myself because they're much easier to build and there's much less room for error. Just don't get a bandpass box, they're terrible for puncy/quick bass.
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Old 03-25-2002, 05:39 PM   #3
StinkyFatPig

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Thanx alot for the reply
ok, and generaly smaller box's have faster and cleaner bass.... right?
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Old 03-25-2002, 06:11 PM   #4
SPLed

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Hi.
What do you describe as 'fast' bass?
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Old 03-25-2002, 06:17 PM   #5
geolemon

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Quote:
Originally posted by StinkyFatPig
Thanx alot for the reply
ok, and generaly smaller box's have faster and cleaner bass.... right?
Well, no..

Smaller boxes won't play as LOW as bigger boxes...
And lower notes are difficult to reproduce in "punchy" way.. the lower the note, the more likely you are to perceive some overhang... depending on amp power and subwoofer...

So there's two ways to interpret your question:
1) So smaller boxes will only reproduce frequencies which my subwoofer is likely to be "punchy" reproducing?
2) So smaller boxes will make my subwoofer "punchy" at all frequencies?

Which isn't true..
Although another factor is how box size and efficiency (think of it as excursion reached per watt of input) are related...
You will notice "punchier" bass at lower excursion levels..
Of course lower excursion levels mean less output (dB) as well..

So your question could also be a third question:
3) So smaller boxes could prevent my subwoofer from reaching excursion levels where it will sound less "punchy"?

It's not so easy of a question..

Small boxes aren't the key to "punchy" bass..
Because you are compromising in other areas (low frequency extension, and efficiency and output levels).. the reason you hear "punchy" bass is simply because you are handicapping your sub system so that it can't get to a point (either in terms of response or excursion) where it could experience a longer decay!

Your total combination of subwoofer selection, amp power (overhead) available, and enclosure type determine how "punchy" your bass is..

that is IF you are interested in making it "punchy" and tight across the WHOLE frequency spectrum, rather than limiting it to only play frequencies that are naturally easier to reproduce well, at excursion levels that make it easier on the subwoofer!
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Old 03-26-2002, 05:33 AM   #6
StinkyFatPig

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now there is a reply, thatís got all the goods..
The basic idea i am getting at with punchy bass is response time.. I donít really know what other term to use for it. The music i listen to need fast bass. generally everyone with systems is into something like rap, hip hop, dance, drum & bass etc.... they all have long bass hits. I listen to "punk rock" or metal, with very fast beats and double bass drum hits. most the SPL guys i know that listen to rap etc, when i play my cds in there system the bass hits roll into each other which makes the low end sound like garbage..

I just started putting this system together, and just planning out what i am going to upgrade to. My current system has 2 older Rockford punch 12". I donít have the spec on them because i just got them used a few weeks ago. An alpine mvr-1002 bridged running at about 600W. I have the frequency set fairly low. the box, i would guess at being like 3 cu feet in volume, maybe 4, but that is a complete guess, it pretty much fills my hatchback.


Thanx geolemon, great post!
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Old 03-26-2002, 04:32 PM   #7
SPLed

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RF punch series. Good memories. Have you heard of that 12' punch that by mistake got hooked to a 2K amp? And curious thing is it didn't blew. It standed for almost 15 min of abuse before someone noticed the new sub was still in its package...
Anyway, you are refering to group delay. That is what happens when in a ported box the sub wave from the front of the sub merges with the backwave channeled and delayed via the port. What you need is a sealed system that has a 'dry' sound.
I personally refer to the other as 'muddy' bass.
And to motivate a sealed system you will need more power, maybe more subs because they need less volume.
If we take part in this forum is because we are willing to share knowledge, not to make sour comments about people that are starting in this way of life.
Feel free to ask.
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Old 03-26-2002, 05:29 PM   #8
geolemon

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Quote:
Originally posted by StinkyFatPig
I listen to "punk rock" or metal, with very fast beats and double bass drum hits. most the SPL guys i know that listen to rap etc, when i play my cds in there system the bass hits roll into each other which makes the low end sound like garbage..
Quote:
Originally posted by SPLed
Anyway, you are refering to group delay. That is what happens when in a ported box the sub wave from the front of the sub merges with the backwave...
...delayed via the port.
What you need is a sealed system that has a 'dry' sound.
I think I would reach that conclusion too..

But I don't know enough about your friend's systems..
It might be those systems were higher-tuned ported systems, or they simply may have had either crap subs or crap amps!

I definitely think in your case, you should not just run a sealed box, but find a subwoofer that is ideal in a sealed box!
What is the Qts on the Rockfords you have?

If you have subs that are just plain-simple ideal in a ported box, you are probably going to be better off with a low-tuned ported box, which can avoid much of that group delay, particularly in the higher-bass frequencies like you find with kick-drum and all that...
The goal being not to make any of your bass range too bloated!

The Qts can help us decide whether your subs are better in sealed or ported (or either!)
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Old 03-26-2002, 05:40 PM   #9
geolemon

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Quote:
Originally posted by rangerfan99
Generally sealed boxes are more tight but a properly built and tuned ported box will sound just as good if not better. I prefer sealed myself because they're much easier to build and there's much less room for error. Just don't get a bandpass box, they're terrible for puncy/quick bass.
That's not true..

I recently built an isobaric bandpass box..
It was even a 6th order bandpass box..
And I was able to design a smooth response that really yielded great sound quality!
http://www.geocities.com/geolemon/bandpass.html

It's all in the design..

I agree you don't want to "get" a bandpass box, if by that you mean buying a pre-fab bandpass...
"prefab" and "bandpass" are two words that just shouldn't be placed next to each other, in my opinion..
If you model some subs up using software, properly designing your chambers and your tuning of the chambers, you will see that the designs for similar subs will vary widely.. you will see that designing a "one box fits all" is nearly impossible!

So definitely rule out any prefab bandpasses...
But don't allow an experience with some sub in a prefab bandpass to be the basis for a generalization on bandpass boxes in general!
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Old 03-26-2002, 06:54 PM   #10
SPLed

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Hi.
I asume it is a RFZ-1412

Fs 28
QTS 0.49
VAS 140.8 liter
Xmax 7mm
RMS 100

Recomended sealed enclosure 1.25 cu/ft
Recomended ported enclosure 2.0 cu/ft
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Old 03-27-2002, 05:36 AM   #11
StinkyFatPig

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Hey thanks spled, I was wondering what subs they where, and i punched that up in google and they said they where about 4 years old which is exactly what they are so could be.. I am not too sure though cause i am running 600W into them and they dont seem to be having any problems seeing as the ones you said are 100W.. but really, I dont know.. and from those spec's i think my box is way too big.. but for the time being it sounds really good and i will wait till i get new subs, which will hopefully be soon.

GEO, thats a smokin box.. quality work man... But point well taken, basically there is a box for ever application..

I actually just installed the subs yesterday and they smoke.. I am completely surprised how much they pound! considering how old they are that is.... the sound quality is really good, Now i just need aset of components that can keep up..
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