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Old 05-23-2006, 07:41 AM   #1
PuffDaddy_d

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Subwoofer Displacement Reference Thread

Before taking the time to compare linear output potentials amoung sealed subwoofers... If this is your first system, you should start by finding out what type of subwoofer setup will best suit your needs. Useful information regarding this process can be found at this link: How to Buy a Subwoofer

How loud a woofer can get in a sealed box is usually determined by its displacement. Displacement is basically how much air the woofer moves in each stroke. The more displacement, the louder it will be. Displacement is measured in Liters and you can use this spec to get a GENERAL idea about which sub will be able to get louder. 2-Way Linear Displacement = xmax*sd*2.

Since everyone always argues about which "super sub" is better, I figured that I would at least help to make it easier for everyone to see how much each sub can displace. SQ is always subjective. This thread is just to be used as a reference for the displacement capabilities of these commonly discussed "super subs". It is not intended to start ANOTHER long, drawn-out, conversation about which is "better".

JL Audio 12w7 = 3.1436 Liters
MTX 9512 = 2.748 Liters
Adire Brahma12 MKII = 2.5288 Liters
Adire Brahma12 MKIII = 2.4852 Liters
IDmax12 = 2.6814 Liters
Sound Splinter RL-s = 3.9039 Liters
Resonant Engineering 12-XXX = 3.072 Liters
Resonant Engineering 2006 12-XXX = 5.184 Liters
TC Sounds TC-2000 = 2.7475 Liters
TC Sounds TC-3000 = 3.0387 Liters

Since a lot of the "super subs" that we are used to talking about don't seem to be in stock, I've taken the liberty of creating this guide for the "sub-super subs". These are some of the MOST talked about 12-inch Subs:

Sound Splinter RL-p = 2.2796 Liters
Dayton Titanic MKIII = 1.671 Liters
Acoustic Elegance AV12 = 2.2908 Liters
Alpine Type-R = 1.7472 Liters
Alpine Type-X = 2.0207 Liters
Stereo Integrity MagD2 = 2.304 Liters
Resonant Engineering SE = 1.720 Liters
Resonant Engineering SX = 2.112 Liters
Resonant Engineering MX = 2.112 Liters
Kicker L7 = 1.7028 Liters
JL Audio W6v2 = 1.6566 Liters
Elemental Designs 13Ov2 = 1.9947 Liters
TC Sounds TC-1000 = 2.355 Liters
Ascendant Audio Arsenal = 2.173 Liters

Keep in mind that these numbers are for linear displacement ONLY. These numbers will NOT be the determining factor for which sub will give the best over-all performance. Also, all calculations were made with specs directly from the manufacturers website (except RE).

Last edited by PuffDaddy_d; 12-28-2006 at 09:33 PM. Reason: I added a guide for purchasing subwoofers, and updated the list of subs.
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Old 05-23-2006, 05:59 PM   #2
defhalotones

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thanks for the info man
2006 12-XXX = 5.184 Liters wow..

-Jake-
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:16 PM   #3
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just out of curriosity, why is the mag in the "sub-super subs" category Last I checked, it was ranked right up there with the w7
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:18 PM   #4
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interesting... I didn't know the AV12's displacement was higher than the RL-P's, and almost up there with the MAG's!
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:52 PM   #5
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- Going by linear displacement only. Just because bassfreak a.k.a. extreambass says so, doesn't make it fact. Not even the old XXX had as much displacement as the 12W7.

- The RL-p's extra 1.2mm of excursion doesn't make up for its smaller cone area compared to the AV12. That's why the IDMax has so much displacement without needing 28mm+ of xmax.
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuffDaddy_d
- Going by linear displacement only. Just because bassfreak a.k.a. extreambass says so, doesn't make it fact. Not even the old XXX had as much displacement as the 12W7.

- The RL-p's extra 1.2mm of excursion doesn't make up for its smaller cone area compared to the AV12. That's why the IDMax has so much displacement without needing 28mm+ of xmax.
i think the Mag was tested to have 24.5mm xmax and 480cm^2 of SD
this come out to 2.4L. i don't care where you put it or how you rate it. i know thats its one of the best woofers money can buy. the sheer fact of the compersion in displacment as the mag is closer ot the sub super subs is a joke. it smokes all of them out of all the woofers in the MAGs list i haven't heard 4 the rest are no compersion in anyway.
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
i think the Mag was tested to have 24.5mm xmax and 480cm^2 of SD
this come out to 2.4L. i don't care where you put it or how you rate it. i know thats its one of the best woofers money can buy. the sheer fact of the compersion in displacment as the mag is closer ot the sub super subs is a joke. it smokes all of them out of all the woofers in the MAGs list i haven't heard 4 the rest are no compersion in anyway.
maybe the MAG should be part of the super subs category; but the fact is (and I know it doesn't matter to you) that the MAG is not as popular/knowned as the other guys in that category... btw why is there a difference between your sd calculation and Puff's?!

Last edited by drozzy; 05-04-2007 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drozzy
maybe the MAG should be part of the super subs category; but the fact is (and I know if doesn't matter to you) that the MAG is not as popular/knowned as the other guys in that category... btw why is there a difference between your sd calculation and Puff's?!
honestly i don't care where its "put" and i honestly dont care more about linear displacment as its one parameter in a mix. a while back someone (i think nick) came over and stated the xmax of the driver. the SD was given on the site. all I did is plug the information in winisd and it gave me that figure.
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuffDaddy_d
- Going by linear displacement only. Just because bassfreak a.k.a. extreambass says so, doesn't make it fact. Not even the old XXX had as much displacement as the 12W7.

- The RL-p's extra 1.2mm of excursion doesn't make up for its smaller cone area compared to the AV12. That's why the IDMax has so much displacement without needing 28mm+ of xmax.
I get it now...

You found out that neither of your two sub/comparison threads could be put up as a sticky, so you're sticking them together to let Geo or Lee sticky it!
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
honestly i don't care where its "put" and i honestly dont care more about linear displacment as its one parameter in a mix. a while back someone (i think nick) came over and stated the xmax of the driver. the SD was given on the site. all I did is plug the information in winisd and it gave me that figure.
And I got the xmax number from one of your posts...silly me

It's all well and good that you don't value xmax, but when it comes to linear displacement, xmax is a very valuable number. Not everyone is going to use a ported enclosure, so I made an easy to access reference for those looking to compare the output potentials for different subs in sealed enclosures. In fact, I believe Geo will be making a complimentary thread that compares ported alignments. The Mag may very well end up at the top of the list in that comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick of Stereo Integrity
We have not published an “official” Xmax figure on the Mag’s because we have not had any DUMAX or Klippel verified but if you need to use a figure use 24 mm one-way.
I believe this keeps my calculations the same.

Last edited by PuffDaddy_d; 06-07-2006 at 05:59 PM. Reason: SI Mag's xmax value confirmed
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Old 05-25-2006, 05:47 PM   #11
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How about the Ascendant Audio Arsenal's 2.173L
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Old 05-25-2006, 06:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuffDaddy_d
And I got the xmax number from one of your posts...silly me

It's all well and good that you don't value xmax, but when it comes to linear displacement, xmax is a very valuable number. Not everyone is going to use a ported enclosure, so I made an easy to access reference for those looking to compare the output potentials for different subs in sealed enclosures. In fact, I believe Geo will be making a complimentary thread that compares ported alignments. The Mag may very well end up at the top of the list in that comparison.

If there is a discrepancy in the Mag's xmax number, then I will be more than happy to correct it if someone could please provide me with the manufacturer's spec. I apologize for not posting a more accurate number.
sometimes i think you don't comperhend my statments you just seapk from the emotion. i don't value xmax? i didn'y say that. please if your going to make statements in anyway involving me why not qute me and answer/reply directly to what was said? not soemthing you "comprehend" wrongly.

may i quote myself sir?
my eariler quote
"honestly i don't care where its "put" and i honestly dont care more about linear displacment as its one parameter in a mix" let me break it down for you

honestly i dont care where its put= you are making assumptions on strictly linear displacment and not actual reference so you CANT prove its louder or not as loud.
and the "i honestly don't care more about linear displacment as it is one parameter in a mix" means that linear displacment is HOW much air it can move linear.
which many people drive there woofers well beyond this but it doesn't matter because you don't right? many high xmax designs have a higher MMS lower FS higher CMS VAS and QMS. It jsut won't get extremely loud as its just VerY inefficient! yet people swear there high xmax designs and high xmax is supior!! that BS of sealed sounding better is related to dampning. you don't care for output? so wait why are we investing in inefficient drivers with lots of throw then putting them sealed when there are more efficent ways? that contridicts itself!!

wait i almost forgot sealed sounds better.

Last edited by bassfreak; 05-25-2006 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:24 AM   #13
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Just because a sealed box is less efficient than a ported box, it does not mean that it is always a better solution to a person's car audio needs/wants. Many people choose sealed applications because they take up much less space and are easier to design. So, for sealed applications what T/S Parameters would you prefer to compare in order to decide which subwoofer has the chance to get louder? I could have made a reference comparing each driver's MMS, but what would that tell us?
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Old 05-26-2006, 03:10 AM   #14
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Thread made into a sticky.

Bear in mind, PuffDaddy_d and I and several people in CAF chat have had long extended discussions about this thread - it can only be "so good" - no sense in arguing that it isn't perfect - everyone already knows that.

This thread is good as a general guideline for telling you the absolute maximum output you could drive any of these subs to, in a sealed box, in a comparative way to other subs, if you could drive them to full excursion - and that involves a lot of box and a lot of amp.

That's all. And this thread really isn't taking into account how suitable for "Sealed box use" any one of these subs is, compared to another. That's not the scope of this thread.
There's a lot of factors to consider, that those of us with experience know to seek out - and those of us without experience don't - and at least a thread like this can be a useful tool in comparison - "displacement per dollar" I think is a great concept, something to really make you think "What am I getting for my money, in terms of actual performance?"

We are going to talk later - probably in another thread - about what matters in a vented box - things get more complicated - excursion (cough - displacement ) matters, and also BL matters (cough - actual force - BL^2/Re ) - and in different proportions of importance to each other depending on if you are an "SPL guy", a "daily driver guy", or a "SQ guy".
It gets complicated, and we knew we couldn't tackle it here... so no complaining that we aren't.

We'll handle that in another thread, come to a general concensus - and then maybe we can make THIS thread even better.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:58 PM   #15
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Also you could ad the Ascendant Audio Assassin 12". It has 1.643L of displacement keeping up with the Type R, the RE SE, and the W6v2. All for only $75!!!
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