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Old 06-05-2006, 12:31 AM   #16
bassfreak

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Quote:
Originally Posted by geolemon
Thread made into a sticky.

Bear in mind, PuffDaddy_d and I and several people in CAF chat have had long extended discussions about this thread - it can only be "so good" - no sense in arguing that it isn't perfect - everyone already knows that.

This thread is good as a general guideline for telling you the absolute maximum output you could drive any of these subs to, in a sealed box, in a comparative way to other subs, if you could drive them to full excursion - and that involves a lot of box and a lot of amp.

That's all. And this thread really isn't taking into account how suitable for "Sealed box use" any one of these subs is, compared to another. That's not the scope of this thread.
There's a lot of factors to consider, that those of us with experience know to seek out - and those of us without experience don't - and at least a thread like this can be a useful tool in comparison - "displacement per dollar" I think is a great concept, something to really make you think "What am I getting for my money, in terms of actual performance?"

We are going to talk later - probably in another thread - about what matters in a vented box - things get more complicated - excursion (cough - displacement ) matters, and also BL matters (cough - actual force - BL^2/Re ) - and in different proportions of importance to each other depending on if you are an "SPL guy", a "daily driver guy", or a "SQ guy".
It gets complicated, and we knew we couldn't tackle it here... so no complaining that we aren't.

We'll handle that in another thread, come to a general concensus - and then maybe we can make THIS thread even better.
im not mad at him or anything. i just think its disimforming. for example. the mag in a direct dropin for the SX was 1db louder and this was a SQ install. the displacment jsut cannot speak the whole truth. its a good reference point, sure but other factors MUST be mentioned.
there have been drop in's from w7s to mags with gains. hell the mag even bettered some big name SPL woofers in some applications displacment isn't totally responsable for these results. i think if you want to inform people they must understand the whole picture, not 1/4 of it. see what im getting at here? im not trying to bust balls or be an *** over a forum. i just think that many people reguard high Xmax as "better" when that couldn't be any futher from the truth.

must i make a thread and we break it down into how much bl is needed? what application and what power requirements? i think this would be a fantastic thing to do. its informative to me and im sure others would love to read up on stuff in acutaly experences before hand and beable to clearly understand what they are getting and what is to be expected. i know it would make me upset whe i dropped 800 for a XXX 12 and a guy whit a 9512 pulld up besides me a laughted and just blew me away, because i wasn't properly informed.

Last edited by bassfreak; 06-05-2006 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
im not mad at him or anything. i just think its disimforming. for example. the mag in a direct dropin for the SX was 1db louder and this was a SQ install. the displacment jsut cannot speak the whole truth. its a good reference point, sure but other factors MUST be mentioned.
there have been drop in's from w7s to mags with gains. hell the mag even bettered some big name SPL woofers in some applications displacment isn't totally responsable for these results. i think if you want to inform people they must understand the whole picture, not 1/4 of it. see what im getting at here? im not trying to bust balls or be an *** over a forum. i just think that many people reguard high Xmax as "better" when that couldn't be any futher from the truth.

must i make a thread and we break it down into how much bl is needed? what application and what power requirements? i think this would be a fantastic thing to do. its informative to me and im sure others would love to read up on stuff in acutaly experences before hand and beable to clearly understand what they are getting and what is to be expected. i know it would make me upset whe i dropped 800 for a XXX 12 and a guy whit a 9512 pulld up besides me a laughted and just blew me away, because i wasn't properly informed.
Everything you said is correct, but this thread is only a comparison of sealed output potential within the linear capabilities of each subwoofer. Every example you just gave deals with ported applications. It is very easy to see that the XXX-12 would easily have the potential to get louder than a 9512 when both are sealed. The original post clearly states how/when/why this comparison should be used, and that it is not the sole determining factor for subwoofer performance. It would be a good thing if you can Geo could get together on a ported cousin for this thread.
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Old 06-08-2006, 09:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuffDaddy_d
Everything you said is correct, but this thread is only a comparison of sealed output potential within the linear capabilities of each subwoofer. Every example you just gave deals with ported applications. It is very easy to see that the XXX-12 would easily have the potential to get louder than a 9512 when both are sealed. The original post clearly states how/when/why this comparison should be used, and that it is not the sole determining factor for subwoofer performance. It would be a good thing if you can Geo could get together on a ported cousin for this thread.
that was very clear and you post is very accurate. i think we should do another section and contuniue this discussion.
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Old 06-13-2006, 05:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuffDaddy_d
...It would be a good thing if you can Geo could get together on a ported cousin for this thread.
I don't think we necessarily need to create a "ported cousin" so much as modify, or provide an alternative metric to look at.

In a similar way that it's not really "Xmax" that matters, it's displacement...
...it's not really "BL" that matters as the 'other consideration' for vented applications, but actually motor force - BL^2/Revc (to account for the actual amount of current potentially flowing through the coil).
But we can simplify things for "guideline purposes" by looking at those more easily understood versions.

Complicating things, it's not "Xmax for sealed, BL for ported" - ported involves a mix of both Xmax and BL - and how important the one is over the other depends on your use for your ported box:
- a SQ enthusiast, looking for the smoothest, most extended response possible would care much more about Xmax than BL - probably a 70%/30% ratio.
On the other hand, a boom-car enthusiast would care more about BL than Xmax - although he wouldn't want his Xmax to limit his output either... more likely the opposite, a 30% Xmax / 70% BL factor.
And your average joe, probably a straightforward 50%/50% consideration.

However, this doesn't lend itself to an "easy formula" (like EBP for example), so I'm still scratching my head on how to handle it - someone suggested an online calculator of sorts, with a drop down selection box to describe your intended use for the sub and cone size selection - and cells to input Xmax, BL and impedence. Unfortunately, I also haven't had time to work on such a nifty calculator...
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Old 06-14-2006, 02:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geolemon
I don't think we necessarily need to create a "ported cousin" so much as modify, or provide an alternative metric to look at.

In a similar way that it's not really "Xmax" that matters, it's displacement...
...it's not really "BL" that matters as the 'other consideration' for vented applications, but actually motor force - BL^2/Revc (to account for the actual amount of current potentially flowing through the coil).
But we can simplify things for "guideline purposes" by looking at those more easily understood versions.

Complicating things, it's not "Xmax for sealed, BL for ported" - ported involves a mix of both Xmax and BL - and how important the one is over the other depends on your use for your ported box:
- a SQ enthusiast, looking for the smoothest, most extended response possible would care much more about Xmax than BL - probably a 70%/30% ratio.
On the other hand, a boom-car enthusiast would care more about BL than Xmax - although he wouldn't want his Xmax to limit his output either... more likely the opposite, a 30% Xmax / 70% BL factor.
And your average joe, probably a straightforward 50%/50% consideration.

However, this doesn't lend itself to an "easy formula" (like EBP for example), so I'm still scratching my head on how to handle it - someone suggested an online calculator of sorts, with a drop down selection box to describe your intended use for the sub and cone size selection - and cells to input Xmax, BL and impedence. Unfortunately, I also haven't had time to work on such a nifty calculator...
what have you started?
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Old 06-16-2006, 12:30 AM   #21
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questions need to be asked.
how much excursion does your application require?
how much BL is needed for the application?
there are down falls for each, and there are so many factors these 2 questions are to start to MANY more. increasing BL means ethier stronger magnetic fields or more windings in the gap. ethier way your loosing mangnetic strength or adding MMS. also spacing between the coil and the magnetic fields also needs to be considered, an access of B means lower dampning. lower dampning means less low frequency efficenty. increased MMS means more lowend efficenty. so the long Xmax designs contridict themselves!
after so much mass is added you need more mangetic strength. so motor become huge, which is not out of the ordinary.
i can't think right now so ill leave it at that. i am sure geos will have something to add.

Last edited by bassfreak; 06-16-2006 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 06-16-2006, 07:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geolemon
...it's not really "BL" that matters as the 'other consideration' for vented applications, but actually motor force - BL^2/Revc (to account for the actual amount of current potentially flowing through the coil).
But we can simplify things for "guideline purposes" by looking at those more easily understood versions.
Bl^2/Re is still a force "factor", just as Bl is.

Actual generated motor force is B*l*I

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Old 06-17-2006, 01:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thnking
Bl^2/Re is still a force "factor", just as Bl is.

Actual generated motor force is B*l*I

applied voltage is Directly related to actual motor strength, a while back you argued that This in fact was Wrong and obsurde. this IS one reason powerhandling IS high important in output.

Back to topic, how does that apply to ported aligments and WHY is Xmax so imporant and WHY BL is so important?
in ported aligments you know have More "pressure", so More motor strength is needed.
actual strength at this point is one one part of the equation. the mechinal dampning and compliance can make all the different is how the woofer "responds" in the aligment. of course a high QMS means less dampning which in turn a higher CMS follows. at tuning the woofers abilitily to control the cones movement is still as crucial as it is 20 cycles above.
like i said the question remains, how much is need for the application.
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Old 06-17-2006, 06:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
applied voltage is Directly related to actual motor strength, a while back you argued that This in fact was Wrong and obsurde. this IS one reason powerhandling IS high important in output.
Your statement was power handling is a measure of motor strength. I answered "It isn't". You can have a very powerful motor with low power handling and have a relatively weak motor with high power handling.
This thread wouldn't be a place for me to explain this again to you.
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Old 06-17-2006, 12:20 PM   #25
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so B*L*I as in flux desensity * number of turns in the gap * voltage applied is actual motor strength? is this correct, or am i missing something?

some amps will do 50 Volts and 30 amps.
others will do 80 volts with say 18.75amps.
same power different amprages and voltages. so by this the amp that puts out more voltage and less amprage would result in a stronger motor(VIA B*L*I)?
Also help me out here because I am confused. powerhandling Is part of actual motor strength, but its not a measure of motor strength? now correct me if i am wrong but more powering handling you have the "stronger" the motor is correct? so BL and appled voltage are acutal motor strength?
seems odd but tesla does describe voltage as "pressure"

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Old 06-17-2006, 09:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
so B*L*I as in flux desensity * number of turns in the gap * voltage applied is actual motor strength? is this correct, or am i missing something?
B=Magnetic field flux density
L=length of conductor (in magnetic field)
I=current through conductor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
some amps will do 50 Volts and 30 amps.
others will do 80 volts with say 18.75amps.
same power different amprages and voltages. so by this the amp that puts out more voltage and less amprage would result in a stronger motor(VIA B*L*I)?
Voltage is the electromotive force that drives current. To determine how an applied voltage affects a speaker you would need to look at mechanical and electrical aspects.
The 2 major factors in this would be:
- The static impedance-which is present regardless of motion (Zs)
- The motional impedance (Zm)
So to get the force generated by voltage applied we need to use this modified version of V=I*R
So:
F=B*L*I
F=B*L*(V/R)

Since this system is in motion V=I*R needs to be modified.
V-Vback=I*Zs

This can be transformed to:
V=I*[Zs+(B*L)^2/Zm]

Substituting in our force EQ:
F=(B*L*V)/(Zs+((B*L)^2/Zm)
This is our motor force without any outside influences (ie force due to air loading)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
Also help me out here because I am confused. powerhandling Is part of actual motor strength, but its not a measure of motor strength? now correct me if i am wrong but more powering handling you have the "stronger" the motor is correct?
Power handling is typically related to the systems ability to dissipate energy. Power to the speaker and power converted to motor force arenít the same, as can be seen above.
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Old 06-19-2006, 01:36 AM   #27
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thank you, that was a imformative post.
so how does this affect a woofers abilitly to proform ported VS sealed?
this not only can be used linear but for nonlinear motive force as well.

also how do you determine how much BL is needed? BL is a measure of motor force, so the more BL the more potentual output. the more power handling the more potnetual output. the more throw you have again results in increased output. As described is many passages dampning is important in enclosure aligments.
for ported
a QTS of .4 or lower
but they never mention QMS or FS or CMS or really anything else for that matter!
QMS is important also, its the ability for the woofer to mechinally "control" itself. its measured @ resonance it is most useful and easiest to measure how well the signal is dampened.
CMS is bascally "how stiff" the suspension is.
KMS describes the stiffness throughout its excursion, which is also imporant.
FS is important also for the reason a above, and to much MMS and it takes a low CMS to get the same QMS, so MMS can be a downfall. f=m/a this tells us the more mass you have the stiffer the suspension is needed have the same amount of dampning.
i find from personal experence that dampning is highy dependant of enclosure size and tuning. so without describing the specific application its dumb to say what amount is needed. personally if i want a good ported box woofer i tend to pick woofers with high dampning not only electrical but mechinal as well.
for instance if i want something that is just obserdly loud i would go with a QTS under .4 and say i wanted to maxmize space as i have about 5 cubes per 15(which is common amout high SPL woofers) i would look at something with a QMS of at higest 5.5 and a CMS of at higest 125um/N. for my listing experences these aligments offer a high level of SPL threw a pretty wide bandwidth as to where a woofer of this sort
QES .4
QMS 7.5
CMS 150um/N
this offers more SPL around tuning and tends or exhibit more excursion with the same power over the same bandwidth(using the same boxes as the other aligments) but not nessicarly incresed output above tuning. without any techinal back ground its hard to say but from actual experence the higher QMS aligments offer more sensitivity in sealed aligments and become very picky about which ported aligments they sound good in.

also i noticed that high QES woofers don't nessicarlly sound "bad" ported, but there is def a noticable difference. there have been times where i have ported a woofer with a QES of .5 ad qts of .45 and QMS of 3.8 and CMS of 160um/N still prforms quite well ported with great output without sacrficing alot of "SQ". increasing box volume and tuning increased output but not so much over a narrow bandwidth it stil remained decently flat( meaning a wider less spiked peak).
i tried 2.5-12ft^3 with this specific woofer and i really couldn't say it sounded bad. 2.5 tuend to 30 sounded overy punchy def too small. 3.5 tuned to 30 was better(if you like that response) and between 4-4.5 this woofer did extreamly good. droped down to mid 20s and played up to 80hz with no hesitation or decrease in output.

With that being said, if you anyone can offer more techinal standpoint i would like to hear it. i know that QMS and CMS play a major role in ported aligments.
as far as BL goes IMO its overrated and overlooked. BL is potentual motor strength, but without knowing efficenty and power compresion it has little meaning. As you stated eariler some designs off expectional power handling with a motor that does exhibit a high BL , yet they still manage very good numbers. while others use extreme BL and decent power handling to get good numbers. while other offer insanely high BL and power handling. often when you do a "drop in" of these types of subs one works better with some applications. of cousre the result is increase SPL(not nessicarly from the stronger motor)

I will say BL is important for linear control and travel when major output is in question, but i also noticed that most times there designs result in lower efficiences and lower powerhandlings, and sometimes both!

recently i have been working on a motor design which will give a good "mix" between excrusion, BL, and power handling, while havng a MMS unheard of at the levels of excursion. so it can be ideal for not just one applcation but many including high SPL(which if you know ANYthing about SPL not many, if any high xmax designs hold world records) aligments.
this is done threw a few very simple steps that are anything but common. My knowledge here is limited so much work is in the future.

once you see as to how it works and WHY its good its really simple and falls back on how a linear motor can be designed. XBL is a great design, and IMO the best out. it too offers both low MMS and good power handing. it also can be designed to go in multipal aligments.

so as geo has said its what fits your application.

Last edited by bassfreak; 06-19-2006 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassfreak
thank you, that was a imformative post.
so how does this affect a woofers abilitly to proform ported VS sealed?
this not only can be used linear but for nonlinear motive force as well.

also how do you determine how much BL is needed? BL is a measure of motor force, so the more BL the more potentual output. the more power handling the more potnetual output. the more throw you have again results in increased output. As described is many passages dampning is important in enclosure aligments.
for ported
a QTS of .4 or lower
but they never mention QMS or FS or CMS or really anything else for that matter!
QMS is important also, its the ability for the woofer to mechinally "control" itself. its measured @ resonance it is most useful and easiest to measure how well the signal is dampened.
Typically the EBP (Efficiency Bandwidth Product) is used to determine if a box should be used in a ported or sealed enclosure. EBP=Fs/Qes
The greater the Bl for a specific design the greater the driver efficiency. But acoustic output in the bass region decreases.
Bl is important for box determination due to its relation with damping.
Someone who is looking for a SQ subwoofer in terms of Bl, would be looking for a consistent Bl through displacement and a Bl number which would lend itself towards their desired box with their desired Q alignment.
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Old 06-26-2006, 01:46 PM   #29
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Update: (6-26-06)

I have updated the STICKY to include a beginner's "How TO" guide for purchasing the right subwoofer.
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Old 06-26-2006, 02:03 PM   #30
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i say you guys just send me 1 of each woofer some amps, and ill test em all out

oo and i want a termlab also woot
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